Rick Barnes and Mack Brown ...

B

Barton Hills

1,000+ Posts
OK ... I'm gonna tip-toe here, in hopes of not upsetting the masses, but I really need to ask a question that's been on my mind for weeks. But let's keep this clean guys.I've noticed that stemming from an upsetting loss at the hands of A&M, and due to a 10-0 start for the basketball program, that there has been a TON of "UT football vs UT basketball" talk on this board, local radio shows, local newspapers ... and I don't f'n get it.

The overwhelming slant has been "Barnes > Brown", "if only our football team was coached like our hoops team", "Barnes doesn't pussyfoot around with his team", "Barnes gets the most out of his players" ... and frankly, I don't see where this is coming from.

Again, this is based off what I read all over the basketbal/footballl boards, I listen to it daily from the hosts and callers on Bucky & Erin and the Chip Brown radio show, and I've read columns in the DMN and SA Express.

Let me offer up some numbers, starting in 1999 :

Mack Brown -
3 South Division Titles
1 Big XII Title
2 BCS Bowl victories
1 Nat'l Champ
However many years in a row with 10+ wins
7 years in a row finshed in the AP Top 15

Rick Barnes -
1 Big 12 Regular Season Title
1 Big 12 Co-Champ Regular Season
0 Big 12 Conf Tourney Titles
1 Final Four appearance
4 trips Sweet 16 or further
9 straight NCAA appearances

So, let me ask ... how exactly is Rick Barnes setting the world on fire in comparison to Mack Brown ?

Both teams at points have over/under acheived. Sure, football has seen some tough days, but they've been to the top. Hoops has had great runs, but they've also suffered some big losses just like Mack Brown and Co.

First, I'll anticipate the "Mack owes it all to Vince Young" argument. Wrong. Rick Barnes was similarly fitted with a couple of VY like figures on the basketball court ... Nat'l Player of The Year TJ Ford, and all everything Kevin Durant. Hell, we had probably the best college player in the past decade last season ... no Big XII Title, no Big XII Tourney Title, 2nd round exit from the NCAA's.

And the coaching aspect ? I seem to remember a handful of 15+ pt leads lost last year @ Tennessee, with the Big XII title on the line in Lawrence, with the Big XII Tourney at stake in OKC.

Barnes has also had numerous other NBA talents on his squads, mixed in with bunches on McDonald's AA's (Aldridge, Mihm, Ford, Durant, Ivey, Gibson, Evans, etc).

And let's not hear about the doing less with more thing either. Both programs are given the best in facilities, recruiting bases, basically everything you could ask for.

OK, I feel like I'm rambling. But to summarize, both of these programs in the grand scheme of things have had major success over the past decade. I'd say both programs are in the Top 10 programs in their respective sport. But I think football has been the bigger winner.

So is Rick just gaining extra praise due to disappointment of the 2007 football season ? Why the cheap shots being lobbed towards football ? I think it's childish and quite frankly ********.

I love both Mack and Rick ... but my opinion is that the football team is taking undeserved slaps to the face.

PS - Augie Garrido says "scoreboard" to both of them.

Heh.
 
It all has to do with the fact that we are a "football school."

There is less competition in football.

We have one of the winningest programs of all time, and we want to keep it that way, year in and year out.

If we are second winningest... why shouldn't we be average the second most wins year in and year out over time? We should be.

Rick has put us on the map in basketball.
 
I thought both were leaving for WVU.
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Football is more important to most fans and so they have a stronger desire for us to succeed in football. And by succeed I mean win every game. Its easier to blame coaches than college kids for losses so the football coaches catch alot of heat.
 
First, in terms of the B12, Kansas has held basketball supremacy. Barnes has been a strong second, but still second. No reasonable basketball fan would assert that Texas's program is the best in the B12.

Football fans here believe, with a reasonable basis, IMO, that Texas can be the best program in the B12, and should be at least equal to OU.

So, while Brown's results probably are a bit better than Barnes's, they didn't start from the same spot, and are not in the same spot today.

Second, I also perceive that Barnes's willingness to say in public that his team is playing poorly and discuss individual players in doing so, while Brown will not, leads to the assumption that Barnes is striving for better, while Brown accepts the results he has gotten as the best he can do.

It's more of the second reason than the first.
 
They're both Elite coaches. I think the gist of things is that Barnes may get more from less, if that makes any sense. They both seem to be great recruiters so I'm not sure if more from less is really true. They're different sports entirely, but I guess some here would say that DJ Augustin would have been sitting the bench at this point in his career if he were a football player. Can't trust underclassmen, you know.
 
The models can't be compared. Even great football players tend to stay in college, while great basketball players tend to look to move on.
 
Texas had never been ranked in the AP top 10 until Barnes hit town. Ever.
Barnes, to me, is one the top 3 coaches in any (revenue) sport in the Big XII.
The guy is a badass.
 
Bob, I think an objective observer would admit that our football team faces a tougher elite conference foe than our basketball team. For most of the past decade, OU has been at least as strong in football as Kansas has been in basketball. Furthermore, OU represents 13% of our conference football schedule every year, whereas Kansas represents 6% of our basketball schedule, and isn't grouped into our division, either.

I also think that concerns about style are trivial -- results (without cheating) are all that matter.

I'm not smart enough to weigh the differences between a BCS title and a Final Four. Based on results, I'd say the two coaches are about equal, which is to say "damn good".
 
I don't think anyone has ever contended that players don't develop or get better under Rick Barnes. He's got a strength coach constantly mentioned for developing athletes capable of playing at this level and the next level. He's taken a program that was nowhere and turned it into a destination for top players to attend.

I also like Rick because he holds his players accountable:

"Barnes made the Longhorns watch tape for 2 1/2 hours on Sunday, a session he said was more difficult than practice.
Afterward, there were jokes about having to remove blood from chair cushions. As Barnes reminded his players: the big eye in the sky — the camera — doesn't lie.

"It was brutal," guard A.J. Abrams said of the film session.

"The worst," forward Damion James added.

Barnes ripped his players for a lazy approach that included trying to reach in and steal the ball instead of being in proper position.

"If you don't fix it, then it snowballs," Barnes said.

Barnes offers specific criticisms of his players. Even before the Texas State game, he said that James and Justin Mason are too "jumpy," at both ends, but particularly on defense."
The Link
 
Part of it is inflated expectations for football.

The other big part is the way we perceive the two sports. People are more accepting of bad things happening in basketball games. People are more accepting of randomness in the outcome. Sometimes your team's shots aren't going while the other team gets hot from the 3. Sometimes you just have poor match ups. Football has fewer games, so people don't recognize the random ups and downs. They have to attribute everything to some cause. Everything gets blamed on someone, in our case, the offensive or defensive coordinators.

If there's any part left over, I attribute it to the fan base being more knowledgeable about football than basketball. The average UT fan could at least imagine calling plays in football, but would have little clue what to do as a basketball coach.
 
I think RB has done an absolutely amazing job. Last year, we started 4 TRUE freshman and a true sophomore and still made the round of 32 losing to a talented USC team. No one has ever gone to the tourney starting that. Imagine in football if a team had 100% of their starters as underclassmen, and still made it to a decent bowl.

What RB has done is simply amazing, the same with MB. But the huge difference is how much talent RB has put out in basketball and how much he has lost early to the draft. If players stayed in b-ball like they do in football, Lamarcus Aldridge, Daniel Gibson, Kevin Durant, DJ Augustine, and Damien James would be our starting lineup. That is simply outstanding.
 
Barnes is a better coach. But people also like him more because he's candid, honest and doesn't hesitate to criticize his team. On the other hand, Brown's spin, excuses, chastising of the media and fans, and thin skin have become tiresome to many people. To me, it's just comical. But many people simply hate it now.
 
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