Negro League Stats included now as MLB Stats.

[2003TexasGrad]

Why? These are different leagues. It literally renders MLB records meaningless. It doesn't matter what the reasons were back then, these were not the same leagues. You can't just commingle these statistics in 2024 because "modern sensibilities." Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[FWHORN]

I understand the angst but MLB stats include statistics from no less than four other leagues (Federal League, American Association, Union Association, and the Players League) and it was never controversial, so frankly going back and adding the statistics from the six leagues that had African American players at a time when they were excluded only makes sense.

Keep in mind that if we really want to talk about "true" statistics, the other side of the argument is that we just get rid of all statistics before Jackie Robinson came along because the major leagues were not a true major league with all eligible players until then. Or what about the "steroid" era statistics and don't even get me started on the whole 154 games or 162-game season issue that left an asterisk on Maris' mark for decades.

I like this compromise and the painstaking effort they are going to in confirming statistics is pretty impressive. Consider that Willie Mays may have even more hits that haven't yet been counted because they are so strict in what they are doing to confirm the numbers. How would Satchel Paige have done in the majors in his prime, and how do we not count his wins during his prime in a competitive league that was as good or better than competitive leagues we do count statistics from such as the Federal or Players leagues. Same for so many other players who were kept out of the game.

 

[guy4321]

If they have 5 other leagues, they should add others too. Mexicans were subjected to discrimination so add the Mexican Baseball League stats.

 

[2003TexasGrad]

No other leagues should have statistics counted either. In European football players move from one league to another all the time, but their stats in one league stay in that league. Their own personal stats follow them of course. For example, Harry Kane would have almost certainly set the record for most career goals in the EPL, but he decided to go play in Germany for Bayern Munich. His goals for Bayern don't count in the Premier League despite him still scoring them.

MLB shouldn't count stats from any league other than from actual MLB games, period. We can discuss longer or shorter seasons, and certainly I don't personally count the records set in the roids era, but what they are doing is just muddling up everything even more than it might have already been.

If you want to argue that there were years the Negro Leagues were better than MLB, no problem. However, it was still a different league. It doesn't make sense.

 

[ViperHorn]

The compromise should have been the creation of "Professional Major League Stats". League stats have to mean stats in that League.

 

[FWHORN]

The compromise should have been the creation of "Professional Major League Stats". League stats have to mean stats in that League.

A good point. The problem of course is that MLB is the repository of stats for U.S.-based leagues and has not wanted to distinguish between the leagues it keeps stats for. MLB being a reputable depository is another reason why moving the negro league stats under that umbrella there is a good thing, it preserves reputable stats for leagues that otherwise might be lost to the sands of time. Going back now and splitting out the stats to each league and then having a single "professional" number too might or might not be an effort, though it is something I bet many baseball junkies like myself would enjoy.

No other leagues should have statistics counted either. In European football players move from one league to another all the time, but their stats in one league stay in that league.

Not exactly apples to oranges. A more apt comparison to European soccer actually supports what MLB is doing. There are multiple leagues that count for stats in England from Premier, Championship, League One, and Two all the way down to the National League and all those stats count toward a player's overall career numbers in English football. That is a better comparison than different country leagues. As for comments about leagues in other countries counting (Mexico referenced above), there has been discussion about counting stats from Japan or Korea but it has never gotten very far. That is likely to stay the same but the difference is the negro leagues were U.S.-based not in a foreign country. Keep in mind that the all time base hit leader if you counted all professional hits would be Ichiro and not Pete Rose if Ichiro's 1,278 hits in Nippon Professional Baseball were counted.

I think it's a good debate because baseball is such a stats-based sport and as a junkie I love the math of it with such a long season and so many at bats, pitches, defensive plays etc. It's why we take so seriously reputable stats. I get both sides of the argument I just fall on the side of count the stats from the negro league.

 

[2003TexasGrad]

The issue is MLB is synonymous with the 30 team league that bears its name. It's definitely grown over the years and teams have folded or moved but by and large it's been a consistent league.

Yes, players that go from the Championship to the Premier League still have their goals counted toward their career numbers, but a goal in the Championship doesn't count as a goal in the EPL.

Great analysis, but what MLB is doing is completely eliminating that distinction and that's a bad thing. These leagues are not all the same and combining stats under one umbrella basically makes it so.

 

[guy4321]

Yea, no sane baseball fan is going to stop thinking Ty Cobb's .367 batting average is the best all-time to a guy who never played in MLB. Josh Gibson probably would have done well in MLB - perhaps even set the record, but we won't get that answer. Adding him from Negro Leagues also supports my argument above to include Mexican Baseball League stats because guess who played for Veracruz in the Mexican League? Yup, Josh Gibson...

 

[2003TexasGrad]

Yea, no sane baseball fan is going to stop thinking Ty Cobb's .367 batting average is the best all-time to a guy who never played in MLB. Josh Gibson probably would have done well in MLB - perhaps even set the record, but we won't get that answer. Adding him from Negro Leagues also supports my argument above to include Mexican Baseball League stats because guess who played for Veracruz in the Mexican League? Yup, Josh Gibson...

Agreed. Once you open this can of worms, why stop? A look at the top scorers in English football history gives a variety of results depending on the league. The top flight has changed a few times over the decades, but there is still a delineation between leagues and eras.

No one is saying that other players accomplishments in other leagues aren't noteworthy but they just shouldn't be counted as MLB statistics as if they were played against the Yankees or Dodgers or Red Sox etc.

 

[bystander]

The NFL recognized all the AFL stats but not the AAFC stats, which is the league that brought us Paul Brown and Otto Graham. Supposedly, the record keeping was very sketchy. Here's an editorial about all of that:

https://profootballresearchers.com/coffin-corner80s/02-07-036.pdf

 

[guy4321]

I know this isn't WM, but we all know the reason why. They're black players not Asian or Hispanic. The AAFC isn't a problem for the complainers because that was a white league.

 

[bystander]

I know this isn't WM, but we all know the reason why. They're black players not Asian or Hispanic. The AAFC isn't a problem for the complainers because that was a white league.

That element is out there. The problem, while still possibly racial, could also be CRT. This is possibly seen as being in that vein. People see that as a political wave sweeping over the land. CRT goes too far in my view (I'm not an expert on it) but there are things that should be rectified. There is no doubt in my mind that the white players benefitted from not have all comers play against them. At the same time, it's possible the black players stats would have been not as great if they played against the white players. Both sets of players had great great players and average players. Putting them together, the cream would have risen to the top. We are using absolute stats because that's all we have.

Quien sabes?

 

[1sahorn]

In 1969, MLB added the stats of 6 other leagues (1 going back to 1876 & all 6 of them all white), so the argument that, for some/any reason the Negro Leagues should be excluded simply doesn't hold water.

 

[bystander]

In 1969, MLB added the stats of 5 other leagues (1 going back to 1895 & all 5 of them all white), so the argument that, for some/any reason the Negro Leagues should be excluded simply doesn't hold water.

Not to get into an argument, but I personally think the dead ball era should be eliminated and I think Cy Young's all-time win record is ridiculous.

 

[1sahorn]

Not to get into an argument, but I personally think the dead ball era should be eliminated and I think Cy Young's all-time win record is ridiculous.

Whether or not the dead ball era records SHOULD be eliminated, I seriously doubt they will be.

 

[bystander]

Whether or not the dead ball era records SHOULD be eliminated, I seriously doubt they will be.

I'm sure you're right. The home run records are not in jeopardy!

 

[guy4321]

In 1969, MLB added the stats of 6 other leagues (1 going back to 1876 & all 6 of them all white), so the argument that, for some/any reason the Negro Leagues should be excluded simply doesn't hold water.

You've explained why another league (Negro) should be included (heck, MLB already added 6 others) but not why another league (Japan, Mexican) should be excluded.

 

[mb227]

If they have 5 other leagues, they should add others too. Mexicans were subjected to discrimination so add the Mexican Baseball League stats.

Jake Taylor would approve...remember, he only got to Cleveland because he couldn't cut it in the Mexican League...

 

[1sahorn]

You've explained why another league (Negro) should be included (heck, MLB already added 6 others) but not why another league (Japan, Mexican) should be excluded.

You forgot the Venutian & Martian Leagues